Rape -v- Seduction

[polimicks]

So someone in my last post asked about my views on rape versus seduction. And while I think I know what they might be getting at, I have to say that they are pretty much NOT the same thing, even remotely.

Ok, if you read a lot of romance novels, or other genre novels that include sexy bits, you might get the impression that seduction is just coercion dressed up in flowers and silk sheets. It isn't. Not by a long shot. Those books are fantasy. Say it with me, 'FAAAANNNN-TAAAAA-SSSYYYYYYYY.'

The person went on to clarify that they meant "tricking" someone into bed, versus, say, physical coercion and how I felt about that.

Well, I'm kind of... I don't really know how to answer that. Because I don't think I've ever been tricked into sex per se. I mean, I've wound up having sex with people I didn't initially intend to sleep with, but there was no trickery involved. It was more a matter of they finally got tired of my having NO CLUE, and very bluntly propositioned me. And since I've always been game for a good roll in the hay... So I'm not entirely sure how one actually goes about "tricking" someone into bed. You ask, and they say yes or they say no. Where does the trickery come in?

I mean, I've read romance novels and watched Lifetime movies and after school specials on teen pregnancy, so I kind of intellectually get the concept. But the whole idea that someone could "trick" you into sleeping with them if you didn't want to, I don't get. I understand people who have a chemistry or pheromone that if you aren't with them you just don't find them the least little bit sexy, but when you're together... WOW!!! I've known a couple of guys like that.

Maybe it's because I have a traditionally "Guy" view of sex. I don't know.

Granted, I also think you should always be honest with your sexual partners about pretty much everything.

I don't know, maybe if you guys could give me some examples of being "tricked" into bed, I might be able to dissect them and build a case for or against. But it is so far outside the realm of my experience, that I just don't know what to say.

I guess misrepresenting your intentions towards the relationship would count as trickery. If you're telling someone you want to be with them forever to get them in the sack when you have no intent of sticking around for fifteen minutes after the deed, then I suppose, yeah, that is trickery. Not rape, definitely not rape, but, yes, unethical. And how many women does that shit actually work on? Fewer and fewer every day, I would hope, although the plethora of self-help books about such things does not give me hope.

So, do I think lying to someone about your future intentions and conning them into bed that way is rape? No.

Do I think it is at all ethical? No.

Do I think it is seduction? No.

And coercing someone into sex is also not seduction, I don't care how many flowers you buy, how silky the sheets are and how sexy you are. Coercion = Rape.

So, yeah, I guess that's where I stand. I hope this helps at least a little bit. If not, feel free to ask me more questions and I'll try to expand.

Comments

[javagoth.livejournal.com]

So I'm not entirely sure how one actually goes about "tricking" someone into bed. You ask, and they say yes or they say no. Where does the trickery come in?

I went to my first BDSM party alone. It was a semi-private party I'd heard about through and organization I'd only just joined. By semi-private I mean there were no DM's at the party. I hadn't intended to play - just to see how I felt about it - if I really felt as strongly about it as I thought. It was a costume party so by being someone else I mustered the courage to drive to Seattle (which I really didn't know well at all) and go to this party.

I was not prepared for how overwhelmed I would get by just being there watching. I didn't realize then how suggestible I can get when I'm aroused and my endorfens are pumping. I had only had sex with one person - my soon to be ex-husband - at that point. I was shy and I was not as confident as I am now. A guy pursued me all night. I had seen him there with a partner so I though they were going to play together but that wasn't the case. I wouldn't have said so much about myself if I had realized... I don't think. Hell it was that crazy time just after a long term relationship break-up so who knows! He talked me into playing. He talked me into getting undressed. It was extremely embarrassing to me but I'd seen other fat women in various states of undress so I told myself it was OK. We played. He never asked me if I wanted to have sex. At some point he pulled me onto his lap on the couch and... well OK we were having sex.

I froze. My brain locked up. I had no idea what to do. All the internal tapes told me I had brought this on myself. He was using a condom at least. A part of my brain even reasoned that I had to have sex with someone not my husband at some point...

I think that qualifies as being tricked into sex. This happened on more than one occasion in those early days of playing for me. It says a lot about my state of mind I suppose that I actually dated that guy for a month before realizing he treated me like shit and walking out on him.

I don't really count it as rape. I counted it as a learning experience.

[polimicks.livejournal.com]

Ack. Ok, if someone slips their goodies into your goodies that is just... not ok.

And I don't... wow... This requires thought, a lot of thought. Because I would definitely say rape now. And I'm sure if this happened now you or I would probably turn around and rip the asshole's head off for shit like that.

I hate the conditioning that makes us think that the worst thing we can be is rude.

[javagoth.livejournal.com]

Yeah - different time and place. And when I said to someone that I felt a little like I'd been raped I got read the riot act about it because it's not like I'd been screaming no and stuff.

For me it was such a boundary stretching thing to be playing and nude in a semi-public place already that my brain sort of short circuited and couldn't take the additional stress of making a fuss over it. I guess I felt like I would be blamed for that situation anyway - the "well if you didn't want sex why are you naked?" thing...

[kaligrrrl.livejournal.com]

"got read the riot act about it because it's not like I'd been screaming no and stuff."

BULL-MOTHERFUCKING-SHIT!!!

[javagoth.livejournal.com]

Oh and on top of the rest he tried to do the surprise butt sex thing too. I finally found my voice to say "no" to that so that's something I guess...