Rape -v- Seduction

[polimicks]

So someone in my last post asked about my views on rape versus seduction. And while I think I know what they might be getting at, I have to say that they are pretty much NOT the same thing, even remotely.

Ok, if you read a lot of romance novels, or other genre novels that include sexy bits, you might get the impression that seduction is just coercion dressed up in flowers and silk sheets. It isn't. Not by a long shot. Those books are fantasy. Say it with me, 'FAAAANNNN-TAAAAA-SSSYYYYYYYY.'

The person went on to clarify that they meant "tricking" someone into bed, versus, say, physical coercion and how I felt about that.

Well, I'm kind of... I don't really know how to answer that. Because I don't think I've ever been tricked into sex per se. I mean, I've wound up having sex with people I didn't initially intend to sleep with, but there was no trickery involved. It was more a matter of they finally got tired of my having NO CLUE, and very bluntly propositioned me. And since I've always been game for a good roll in the hay... So I'm not entirely sure how one actually goes about "tricking" someone into bed. You ask, and they say yes or they say no. Where does the trickery come in?

I mean, I've read romance novels and watched Lifetime movies and after school specials on teen pregnancy, so I kind of intellectually get the concept. But the whole idea that someone could "trick" you into sleeping with them if you didn't want to, I don't get. I understand people who have a chemistry or pheromone that if you aren't with them you just don't find them the least little bit sexy, but when you're together... WOW!!! I've known a couple of guys like that.

Maybe it's because I have a traditionally "Guy" view of sex. I don't know.

Granted, I also think you should always be honest with your sexual partners about pretty much everything.

I don't know, maybe if you guys could give me some examples of being "tricked" into bed, I might be able to dissect them and build a case for or against. But it is so far outside the realm of my experience, that I just don't know what to say.

I guess misrepresenting your intentions towards the relationship would count as trickery. If you're telling someone you want to be with them forever to get them in the sack when you have no intent of sticking around for fifteen minutes after the deed, then I suppose, yeah, that is trickery. Not rape, definitely not rape, but, yes, unethical. And how many women does that shit actually work on? Fewer and fewer every day, I would hope, although the plethora of self-help books about such things does not give me hope.

So, do I think lying to someone about your future intentions and conning them into bed that way is rape? No.

Do I think it is at all ethical? No.

Do I think it is seduction? No.

And coercing someone into sex is also not seduction, I don't care how many flowers you buy, how silky the sheets are and how sexy you are. Coercion = Rape.

So, yeah, I guess that's where I stand. I hope this helps at least a little bit. If not, feel free to ask me more questions and I'll try to expand.

Comments

[sarmonster.livejournal.com]

Eh...Lessee if I can articulate this:

We all have that person we're attracted to, but know it's a BAD IDEA For whatever reason: You live with them, they're 'not your type', you don't want them to fall for you, vice versa, your best friend has the hots for them, you swore off sex for a year after your last breakup(You've already covered the marriage thing).

You have a couple of drinks, you end up alone together, and are overcome with the worst case of Teh HORNEEE you can remember, and wow, here's this perfectly attractive potential partner who may or may not be nuzzling your ears, or talking in a husky voice about...say...the evolutionary reasons behind the mating behavior of weaver birds with his shirt half-open and a Han Solo pose(woops, OK, that's MY fantasy). The reasons you had for not engaging in a great rubbing of parts seem distant and tertiary at best.

NOW, imagine this person -whom you may well consider a friend- has deliberately created this situation.

[sirriamnis.livejournal.com]

Seduction, yes. Trickery... not so much. Far too transparent to be trickery.

Ethically... kind of sketchy.

[polimicks.livejournal.com]

Errrr... maybe transparent is the wrong word.



However, in THIS case, I am going to say if you're really, really determined not to shag this person, then at some point you either need to decide that and say NO, or say ah screw it and leap in enthusiastically.

I went through this several years ago when I slept with a friend's ex. I didn't INTEND to. But he was horny, I was horny... And I did it. I even said no, once, really weakly, before I lunged at him and yanked his jeans off.

A friend who had heard the incredibly weenie "no" I uttered before I yanked him into his bedroom and tried to suck his tonsils out, tried to console me later, as I was beating myself up in my truck, by saying, "I heard you say no."

I hadn't meant it. I totally hadn't meant it, and told him that.

I wound up confessing to that friend later about banging her ex, and she was totally ok with it. Thankfully.

[sarmonster.livejournal.com]

Really, we're dealing with getting laid, I think any attempt besides an outright "Wanna fuck?" "Sure!" might fall into ethically sketchy.

So how DOES one acquire a sexual partner ethically -leaving out the biblical BS, of course- Maybe that's what needs to be said.

I with you, I don't think there were victims in that case, if it's that big a risk, stay the fuck away from that person.

[sarmonster.livejournal.com]

And cross-post this shit on Valerie, will ya?

[sarmonster.livejournal.com]

Well, the only other thing I can think of otherwise is switching off the lights and having your intended switch partners on you in the dark. You thought you were having a roll with X, when its actually X's friend Y. X listens in the dark & laughs.

Trickery.

[sirriamnis.livejournal.com]

AND rape. Because you didn't agree to have sex with Y. You wouldn't have had sex with Y.


I would be livid. There would be blood. Seriously, that is so fucking not ok.

[sarmonster.livejournal.com]

Yeah, double homicide, coming right up.

OK, so, same deal? Every homophobe's nightmare, though I doubt this happens ever:

You meet an attractive, intelligent woman; she's all on about the kinky, intriguing, she says she has a new toy she'd like to penetrate you with, maybe even shows you the toy. Sure! You say. Go back to her place, lights go out, or maybe you're just bent over a counter, and Surprise! Not a girl. Not a toy.

Rape? Yeeeeah. Hold up in court? Probably not.

[sirriamnis.livejournal.com]

This is a tough one because:

Because while you did not consent to be penetrated by a penis, you did consent to be penetrated by this person...

However, then you get into the same issues you get when a girl agrees to one form of sex, but then is forced into another against her will. The guy agreed to one act (penetration by toy) and another was forced on him without his knowledge (penetration by cock).

So, yes, rape.

Not real likely, but not impossible either.

[sarmonster.livejournal.com]

-That's about the best I can do as far as trickery... Manipulative and not a good thing to do to someone, yes. Rape? No.

Maybe its too mild an example.